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  • small - Monday, January 19, 2004 - link

    According your post, I have some following question,
    1.
    "The BTX standard covers two case heights as well. Type I for cases of 3.98 inches high and Type II for small design case at only 3 inches high. Type I use normal expansion cards while Type II will either use risers or be low profile design cards."

    Is that mean type I 3.98 inches high is for microBTX case?
    And type II 3 inches is for picroBTX case? Is that right?
    But the case size shoudn't design by manufacturers themsleve?

    2.You said ATX power supply can be use in BTX motherboard?
    But according to the design guide of CFX12V power supply which issued by intel,
    (CFX12V power supply is designed to support BTX systems).
    The most different between CFX12V and ATX12V power supply ,
    I think it should the physical dimension & main power connector to motherboard.
    Due to the shape of CFX12V is different than ATX12V, so how can standard ATX12V power supply can be sued for BTX??
    And also the power connector (motherboard) for CFX12V is 24PIN,and ATX12V is 20P.

    why ATX12V power supply can be used in BTX motherboard and computer case?

    emi
  • MasterOfPuppets - Thursday, January 15, 2004 - link

    I would like to say to #85 that this new form fator was designed for less heat. I would not say that computer companies are losing money no their computers. they screwed themselves and are looking for a way out. they offered too much porcessing power to the market, and now the AJ(average joe) has more processing power than he knows what do do with it. HE can do everything he can imagine on it(lets just say hes kinda dumb to average with computers).the AJ doesnt need to buy another computer, b/c he has excess power to check his email and surf the web. it supply and demand, the demand plateaued but the supply of great new better technology took off.the computer companies have an excess of computer parts sitting around and the only way to get rid of them in a sensable way is to change formats and declare the old ATX obsolete. the AJ doesnt need a 3Ghz comp, but he has one and for him hes set for a couple of years. the computer companies want his money and if he doesnt buy a comp for 3+ years then the computer companies arent making too much. this is exactly why the format is changing, and if u dont believe me you can float around in your dream word where the computer companies are your friends. Back to the heat part of the case. as stated before in this forum there are cheaper meathods to get more cooling(rather than buy a new computer), and the AJ doesnt give a crap about his computers heat, it is a way to cover up the computer companies true motives(like all other companies in a captialist society, to get your money.)the only people that truely care about their computer's heat are tweaker's and it is true that they are not in the business equation, but the AJ isnt going to care about the new format if his computer works fine and does what it needs to do,surf the internet, which i should add is a very demanding task.lol. this new foramt is a business decision and they had to make this decision to get themselves out of a deep hole they dug. I would like to add that i will be the very last if ever person to switch to BTX(Broken Technology eXtended, i liked that quote) and i hope that their business decision leads them to a very dark and nasty place.
  • MasterOfPuppets - Thursday, January 15, 2004 - link

    This so called new technology just another way to get your money. Why cant ATX components be compatable, because that would decrease the amout of money that computer companies get. I currently have a lot of money invested in my computer and have little intention to buy a bunch of new parts because my current ones arent compatable with this crappy re-arranged motherboard. If people really want some heavy duty, silent cooling make water cooling more common, dont make peol buy a whole new computer just so that it will be cooler. i dont know how many of u got that out of that article, but if ur current computer is too hot do u want to go and buy a new one that only slightly colder? HELL NO! i refuse, and the computer companies can kiss my a$@!!
  • zookus - Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - link

    For those of you who haven't yet had a chance to see it, here are the specifications for just about everything relating to the BTX standard:

    http://www.formfactors.org/developer/specs/BTX_Spe...

    What concerns me is that according to this, even the largest cases will only have room for ONE hidden 3.5" device. Sort of screws my RAID array. Has anyone heard word otherwise?
  • Anonymous User - Sunday, October 19, 2003 - link

    o pa isto pra min é cona...cona e cu...por min tas bem agora atx e abx ou o caralhu
    venha a cona
  • Anonymous User - Saturday, October 4, 2003 - link

    #91 again this would only work well on tower cases
  • Anonymous User - Saturday, October 4, 2003 - link

    why can't they use isoecletric cooling modules like they have in coolatron camp coolers? are they too big or do they draw too much power? Put two on the bottom and the hot air rising would pull coolair up from the bottom .You have intake vents on the bottom below the cooling modulesand exhaust vents on the top of the case.Normal convection might not need fans. As the air gets hotter up top the more air it would pull up from the bottom.Just a matter of sizing the ventsand adding a thermostat.I might try it on my ATX I' building. Let ya know if it works.
  • Anonymous User - Saturday, September 27, 2003 - link

    Moving the chairs on the Titanic. Intel needs to go back to the drawing board and start putting Pentium M's on the Desktop instead of Pentium 4's. That would instantly eliminate the need for form factor changes, thermal modules, etc...Besides saving an incredible amount of energy (not that this is important).
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 26, 2003 - link

    Will the Hollings chip be on the BTX mobos?
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 25, 2003 - link

    A lot of you are assuming that the things that you want is what everyone else wants as well. I've had a big 3d cool case for quite some time with plenty of active cooling, and honestly, i'm getting really really sick of it. I want something small, sleak, and quiet. So what if you have to buy a new case, deal with it, things like this happen now and then, you can't expect to use the same case for the next 50 years.

    You can't judge how this will all work from one preview, wait for some decent boards and cases to hit and then look over the reviews, and then you can decide. Everyone just calm down and accept that change isn't a bad thing.
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 25, 2003 - link

    My understand is that ATX and BTX will co-exist for several years, don't worry , I think..
  • Anonymous User - Monday, September 22, 2003 - link

    All I know is I want one. PCI Express is gonna rule! BTX sucks.. but I can see using it if they keep making large cases to stick these tiny BTX boards into.

  • Anonymous User - Monday, September 22, 2003 - link

    Hey, it's me #2 again. I think some of us have missed the point of the redesign. It will save OEM manufacturers money to build this system. In case you haven't noticed Intel does not give a crap what the tweaker wants. They made a redesign that will sell to the OEM's cuz it's quieter, smaller, and cheaper to build around. Tweakers didn't buy the ~80 billion PC's last year, the AJ (average joe) did, and he doesn't care bout ATX, BTX or Kiss My X, he just want's a computer that will play his kids games, gets porn on the internet, and doesn't break. For less money. It is a business decision, and you aren't part of the equation. Sorry to inform you.
  • Anonymous User - Monday, September 22, 2003 - link

    As it sits, I see little improvement. From memory, ATX cases were at least backward compatible to AT boards (though ATX boards not so well into AT cases) and the power supplies swappable.

    The ATX case that my computer is in does everything that this does, even has a duct for the CPU air, and _all_ the add-in card slots have airflow.

    I still see no point in doing away with any of the old SuperIO yet, although it doesn't appear that they will try too hard to. I like USB but my mice and keyboards aren't broken yet, I still have a couple working parallel printers. I also can and have developed some serial port projects. For the small guys serial is dirt simple, dirt cheap and has no yearly licence cost to legally sell devices, unlike USB.

    For those that want smaller cases, there are a couple sub-formfactors already in ATX that gives people this.

    PCI-Express (apparently not to be confused with PCI-X) isn't needed yet for graphics is it? Even then, there's no need to dump the ATX form to put this in.

    For the top tier computer makers don't really seem to follow ATX for most of their products anyway, and I doubt BTX will change this as they seem to like this lock-in.

    In short, I am not convinced that this was really needed, make an ATX 2.0 or 1.2, make it at least some cross-compatibility, but completely dumping the form factor with no backward compatibility? I don't think so, and I hope the market rejects it.
  • AbRASiON - Sunday, September 21, 2003 - link

    Oh and to add to my post (AbRASiON #82)

    You guys are crazy if you think they won't design a nice bigger one just the same as our current cases.
    You are also crazy if you think they will FORCE the riser card in - it clearly showed a pic of a board without one in the article and the
    "standard" btx board (far right) looked just like an atx - long and wide
    also _MOST USERS_ want a smaller case - personally I don't care - good, space savings is better for them and they will still make larger cases for
    the overclocking / tweaker type.

    I've moved down from a full tower / mid tower to a stock standard mini (sx 635) - it fits up to 4 or more hdd's and 3 5.25"s and it's designed well.
    room to move, without being a big echo-ey POS.

    Just wait until we see non beta cases from Antec, Lian Li and other good manu's, the cases they show in this article look like the cheap cut your finger metal 15$ cases I was silly enough to buy as a kid.
  • AbRASiON - Sunday, September 21, 2003 - link

    I hated this at first but I think it's actually not that bad.

    You guys have to remember a "stock standard" first series ATX case was a piece of crap.
    Wait until a quality case manufacturer and board manufacturer whip up a case and board like Antec and Asus.

    Also there will be no more (or less) smashing into ram / cpu's / video cards by removing the hard disk cage (Antec SX 635 / 660AMG)
    They can put drive connectors all up the top - and no need to dangle anything down the bottom. (shorter SATA cables)

    I really would like to see the leads for power on / led / hdd / reset to be put in to one standard - it should have been done long ago (hell IBM and Dell? have done it a few times with some of their more proprietry systems, it's so much better)

    Also one standard for front USB / front Firewire and hell front Sound / other ports would be nice too

    Imagine an Antec 660 / 860 / 1060 case. now picture it with a big high quality quiet 12cm fan at the front and a smaller 8cm fan at the back, clearly sucking all the heat straight across the bottom of the case and out the back - any excess heat would raise up to the top where the PSU dual fan would get rid of it - and no heat hanging around "up the top" where the cpu is, cause it's down the bottom.

    Here's what I _DO_ wanna see changed.
    Stock standard SATA cables on power supplies (SATA power)
    a better routing system in cases for power cables
    a better looking power cable (mini mesh sheilding?)
    i'd like to see slide out motherboard trays as stock on all cases
    quick release drive bays
    quick release 5.25" bays
    quick release cards (video / sound) (yes thumbscrews rock, but some ibm's have this cool plastic thing you just kind of lift like a lever and bang all 4 pci slots are free)
    quieter cases (fan / vibration / rattles)
    more rails
    thin (1 / 2 mm) cork sound proofing stuck to the walls of the case
    etc etc

    I want a machine which is very very very quiet and still quite cool and nice quality - I will happily pay 100$ US for a mini / midi tower high quality case with these features.

    We will see what antec can do with this standard, it might not be that bad, honest.

    - AbRASiON
  • Anonymous User - Sunday, September 21, 2003 - link

    Lets just accept it, computers are changing every day, this is just the next step in the cycle. Bring it on BTX

  • Anonymous User - Sunday, September 21, 2003 - link

    My problem is not with buying a new case ,and i do like Intel, best processors out there! (Unless Athlon 64 makes a miracle), still im sticking with Intel. regarding the BTX, i simply don't understand the lack of space! Sure, its trendy to make things smaller, like cellphones!, but lets face it a PC isn't a Laptop!, if i am that concerned with space i buy a laptop(with all the limitations it has), But WHAT ABOUT SPACE???
    The biggest advantage of a PC is its versatility, the possiblity to connect BOARDS inside it. not to mention Hard Drives, CD, DVD, etc etc !

    Sure one could say:" But you can have external devices !!" Oh great!!! My desk will have more wires than a Nasa Command Post ! The Great thing about a pc is its expandability, and BTX's expandability is nearly 0 ! If they want to make a PC like a Console, Absolutely NO problem , BUT they better make it SURE they put EVERY single option there.

    P.S.- The Cooling issue is ludicrous, Its extremely easy to cool down an ATX case.
    I happen to own a Thermaltake Xaser III, and one of the reasons i bought was SPACE!!!!!! 6 internal HD drive bays + 4 front panel 5.25 bays + 2 x 3,5" bays
    And im suppose to go back to the 1980's where most PC's only had space for 1 HDD ? NO WAY !
  • Anonymous User - Sunday, September 21, 2003 - link

    No Way im Spending any cash on this pile of crap!
  • Anonymous User - Sunday, September 21, 2003 - link

    The Apple G5 case design is "revolutionary" - BTX is just a minor tweak.
  • Anonymous User - Sunday, September 21, 2003 - link

    my thoughts are: only a retard could come up with this...
  • Anonymous User - Sunday, September 21, 2003 - link

    #64 and #70. Like I said before, DUH, this is just NLX form factor again. I know because I am posting with it now. Go to IBM and look at 6862 model.

    Many of us are whining because it has been done before and INTEL will make make money, thru kickbacks or from changing the pinout so we'll have to buy a new motherboard. It'l' just be a COINCIDENCE that all the boards with the new pinouts are ONLY BTX. Intel will try to dictate that MOBO makers use the new factor or else their shipments of chips will be LATE. DUH!

    Don't think so, they did it before with AMD board makers, with DELL when they tried ATHLONS ....

  • Anonymous User - Saturday, September 20, 2003 - link

    What a load of incredible hype & bull,
    I had to pinch myself & check if its April 1st
    or something.

    Not to mention its ugly.
  • Anonymous User - Saturday, September 20, 2003 - link

    biggest load of horse shite....what sort of idiots do Intel think we are?
    its a load of marketing ploys and money spinners!!
    long live ATX
  • Anonymous User - Saturday, September 20, 2003 - link

    Some fucking inovation...if you fellas remeber back to the Pentium 1 days, I had an Impression mobo with the CPU mounted on the bottom corner of the mobo _directly_ in front of the case fan!! This BTX shit only puts into the middle wtf? im sure you could snag a few degrees less by going back to the old style of things.

    One other concern...I beleive this is just intel trying make some more money by retiring something good for something new so people will have to go out and buy compatible components when they want to upgrade...do you recall that lame 12+ addon connector for P4, AMR, CNR...VLB/EISA bus from old 486 days?? wtf?? its nothing but a money making raquet.

    Fuck Intel.
  • DieHardware - Saturday, September 20, 2003 - link

    Thanks for the article Anand. I wish they had put the CPU a little further down and front for full/midtower cases(a la AT boards of old).
  • Anonymous User - Saturday, September 20, 2003 - link

    Hmmmm. I feel we have a bit of a mixed bag here.

    The move from AGP to PCI Express is reasonable enough. With the cost of memory so low these days, the whole point of AGP is getting a little lost. Just wack lots of memory on the card itself. Wether the GPU manufacturers will end up doing that remains to be seen.

    On the other hand, I can't help feeling that this standard is just there to patch up some of the problems with the current ATX standard rather than looking toward the future. Unfortunately it's also more restrictive than ATX.

    My main issue with it is that (as someone pointed out earlier) there is no provision for SMP at all. This is a real limitation. With all of AMD's CPU offerings being SMP capable and Intel's Extreme Edition processors hinting that it too may soon embrace SMP on desktop systems, to release a new standard that doesn't support this does suggest that BTX may have a very short lifespan.

    Hopefully sometime soon we'll get a new standard that opens the way for better designs. The Apple G5 is a really good example of motherboard design, also the design of servers like IBM's X360. Unfortunatley BTX isn't it. ATX will have to exist alongside BTX until a new and better standard is devised.

    Overall I feel it's a stopgap design and possibly a missed oportunity.
  • idsanity - Saturday, September 20, 2003 - link

    oh no, $150 for 3 new cases! Why would you need 3 new cases unless you also plan to buy 3 new CPU's and BTX motherboards as well? If you have that kind of money to throw around, I don't see what the big deal is.

    As for the other comments, how can anyone assume Intel is doing this to make a few extra bucks? They don't get anything from BTX licensing. They won't make money off new cases. And if you want one of the next gen CPU's, you're going to need a new motherboard anyway.

    Sure, you may have an ATX setup that keeps everything cool now. But, Prescott and Tejas are going to be putting out a hell of a lot more heat and a redesign is absolutely necessary to accommodate this.

    As for the mirror image, it makes sense in that it will now put GPU's facing the cooling channel and it will prevent people from trying to put a BTX board in a case that isn't designed for the proper airflow needed to cool the new CPU's.

    And regarding the PCI Express x1 resembling CSA... sure, it kinda looks like it, but it offers 2x the bandwidth of current PCI. OK, but why not have a board with all PCI Express x16 slots... because there is no point. It would add unnecessary cost and PCI Express x1 already doubles what we have now with PCI.
  • Anonymous User - Saturday, September 20, 2003 - link

    a) according to BTX-spec we WILL have to buy new PSUs - it's using 24-pin conectors (not 20 as ATX)
    so I hope that's a typo in the article...

    b) the design IS better then ATX - if they can manage the cases to use only 3-4 fans in total it's great! (1 intake, 1 exaust were the i/o ports are + the PSU-fans)

    c) my CPU is in the mid 40's - that means the air leaving the heatsink is probably in the 30's - that air can cool very well, I bet my videocard is using hotter air right now

    d) the power-connector is placed were it should be (great!) but they SHOULD add s-ata-conections above/beside the RAM - the way it's now those cables have to cross the "windtunnel" outlined by the cooling-unit

    e) can't they use 120mm fans?!?
  • Anonymous User - Saturday, September 20, 2003 - link

    Let's see...I have 3 computers....$50 each for a new BTX case....Sure, I'll unnecessarily waste $150. I'm sorry but I have better things to spend that money on like rent, car payments, school, etc.
  • Anonymous User - Saturday, September 20, 2003 - link

    Lets see here. Take the cool air and cool the hottest thing in the case, the cpu. Then use that same air which is now 50 to 60 degrees C to cool other parts of the computer. D-oh.
    Excuse me but not much cooling will take place if the coolant is 50 to 60 degrees C. What idiot thought that up.

    Sorry but this really sucks. I'm sitting here looking at my 5 computers knowing that when its time to upgrade the motherboard the case will have to be upgraded as well.
  • Anonymous User - Saturday, September 20, 2003 - link

    #64, It's not that the evoluionary improvements aren't good enough, it's that almost all these improvements could be implemented on an ATX board with just a small rearrangement of components. Some Asus boards already do some of these changes by moving the memory to the top of the motherboard and putting the CPU and northbridge in line with each other (P4T-series). And if the GPU could be fliped to the back side of the card, like they sometimes do with RAM on graphics cards, that problem would be solved too. And if not, just leave the PCI slot next to the AGP empty, like most people do. No problem.

    All these changes on an ATX board would be nearly as effective as BTX and would allow us to still use our ATX cases. That's the major argument that nearly everyone here is getting at. And it's an incredibly valid argument. So what if a new BTX case would cost me an additional $50. That's $50 I could put towards a better CPU, RAM, motherboard, or simply in my pocket.
  • Anonymous User - Saturday, September 20, 2003 - link

    i also like the solution that apple came up with. i would prefer to see something more like that instead.
  • Anonymous User - Saturday, September 20, 2003 - link

    Man you guys are a tough room. Whine whine whine...not innovative enough...whine whine whine...Intel is trying to control the world...whine whine whine...cooling the CPU first is no good...whine whine whine...BTX is crap.

    Geez...please explain to me how ATX does a better job at *any* of the things you are trashing BTX over. Sure, BTX is going to blow warm air over your northbridge. ATX doesn't blow *ANY* air over your northbridge, but that's okay apparently. BTX will blow hot air over your video card. Once again, ATX doesn't try to blow ANY air over your video card, and in addition flips the video card upside down to trap the hot air underneath, but it gets a pass on this as well. Yet BTX is criticized, apparently because it doesn't create a hyperdimensional space-time warp in your case, allowing *all* the components to be the first one in front of the intake fan simultaneously. Someone said they should concentrate on adding more active cooling to the ATX spec. Great idea...just what we need, even more fans in our PC's. This is EXACTLY what they were trying to reduce (of course it remains to be seen if BTX will be effective in this area).

    Secondly, as for the charge of not being innovative, so? Evolutionary improvements aren't good enough for you? Does it have to have antigravity or something before you'll allow it in your house?

    Third, nobody is going to be forced to buy BTX. There is no magic pixie dust in the PCI Express or SATA spec that prevents it from being implemented on an ATX motherboard. I predict we will see many, many ATX PCI Express motherboards released. And even if BTX does take over the world some day, so what? You'll have to buy a new $50 case 5 years from now when the last ATX motherboard is discontinued and you want to upgrade. Big deal. All your cards and drives and so on will work just the same in a BTX motherboard.

    I'm not saying BTX is great (the jury is still out), but at least it tries to address some of the problems with ATX, and for that it gets trashed by people almost reflexively because they don't like Intel (neither do I particularly, but I like to withold judgement until we actually can see some real systems in action).
  • Anonymous User - Saturday, September 20, 2003 - link

    BTX = Broken Technology eXtended
  • Anonymous User - Saturday, September 20, 2003 - link

    am i the only one who is reminded of 1980s style mobos, with the RISER cards?

    retro != innovation.
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    This is rubbish.

    Why not just build motherboards with all the IO and video built in, and then use the slots to plug in CPU + RAM boards. (Opteron + 4 DDR ports per plug in board). Opteron hypertransport and built in memory controller should make this relatively trivial.

    Id buy that.

    Real innovation - retro style - would be to build the motherboard as a backplane switch like the (old) SGI Octane XBow board - plug in as many IO modules or CPU modules as you like, and have the backplane deliver guarnateed enormous bandwidth between disparate elements.

    PeeCees still suck.
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    Intel's to do list:
    1. change ATX into BTX through the use of mirror technology
    b. change AGP to PCI-Express 16
    III. change change some PCI to PCI-Express
    D. move the processor to the lower front of the case
    - sell everyone a new computer that opens on the side opposite what everyone in the last 20 years has gotten used to

    P.S. somewhere in there, insert profit
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    Only 7 slots in the reference case? No offence, but unless you are using only micro BTX boards, you WILL run out of slots space not by stupid expansion cards that wastes slot spaces with connector brackets.
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    Isn't BTX the comic[1] written by the same guy that did Saint Seiya?

    [1] http://www.silentwings.net/manga/btx/
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    This is a lame arse attempt from Intel in an effort to get everyone to upgrade entire systems.

    Upgrading means :
    (1) profits (PCI-X, new mobos, new CPUs, new bloody everything!)
    (2) they can stick in that Secured Computing crap (La Grande) => control what can be played or viewed. Which means RIAA don't have to sue anymore. It also means goodbye P2P, MP3, Region Free DVD, and all the joys of PC. Prepare to be butt-f*ck by MS in all positions.

    Remember people this is technology consumers can easily reject.

    Simply put, if you don't like it...Don't buy it, don't accept it. There's no one pointing a gun to your head. Intel will see BTX is a failure if no one adopts it.
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    Well, hopefully AMD will see the light and not jump on the BTX bandwagon. Gone are the days where Intel had no strong competitors. If AMD simply requests their motherboard manufacturers to stick with the ATX format or modified ATX format with several of the changes suggested in this forum, the BTX format will likely die a quick death. I'm not an AMD fanboy (I have 3 Intel computers) but AMD can force such a BTX resistance in the motherboard industry, I'd support them.
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    My opinions:
    - Put the CPU in a separate cooling loop. Otherwise your graphics card is going to be suffering trying to cool itself with air at 35°C
    - As other people have mentioned: standardise the motherboard plugs for reset/power/speaker.
    - Make a standard tiny BTX (femtoBTX?) version, possibly stacked boards with SODIMMs and everything onboard.
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    What about cards that pop out during shipping. PCI was bad for this, and AGP was worse. I'm scared that PCI-X, especially 1X will be horrible for this. And #53, the ACR was a gateway to the built-in AC'97 codec, especially for modems, if I'm not mistaken.
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    Everyone here seems to have forgotten about the old "Advanced Communications Riser" or ACR, which was supposed to be a cheap solution for putting on modems, audio cards, etc. I believe this PCI Express x 1 is the revival of this horrible standard.
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    Hmm, isn't that where the CPU was in the first place (on the old AT boards) before ATX moved it?
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    What about the new Apple G5 cooling system? Do something like that for PCs with "thermal zones" to dissipate heat and very very quiet:
    http://www.apple.com/powermac/design.html
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    Innovation? My Ar$e!

    This is just a step back to the bad old days of low profile cases & riser cards. Find a pic of an old vtec 486sx and aside form the lack of cooling system *cough* plastic box its the same!

    Swicthing everything to the other side of the mobo is a stinky ploy to get us to buy new new cases.

    How about dual cpu systems, where will the second cpu go, and will it get its own cooling system (lol), or will we get 2BTX cheep at twice the price.

    That and there is no way in hell my 1/2" water cooling setup will fit :|
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    It all depends on whether a PCIX1 or PCIX16 card will work in a PCIX32 slot. If they do, just MBs with all PCIX32 slots.
  • jema - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    What I dont like is that they are still going for the 'agp scenario' with one PCI express x16 port one the rest x1. Why not make all the card connectors the same size and speed so you can use what ever card you want in any slot? Not everyone will need the gfx card to have the most bandwith in the machine.
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    Yeah, this new thing is going to be shoved down our throats to make a few extra bucks. Nobody is fooled by this. The posts are right, this isn't innovation. There doing this to make more money and save costs. The problem is the saving will not be passed to the consumers. Soon you will be forced to buy plastic everything.
  • Galvin - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    I think Asus will make ATX style boards with PCI express on it. Least this way we can upgrade to pci-express without throwing away our expensive cases.

    As far as cooling I have no problems with it at all. Lian-li all illuminum case and all copper heat sink from zalman do more than enough cooling.

    This new case design is nothing but people to spend a lot of cash. But like I said I think will be able to get pci-express ATX boards from makers like asus, so no need to jump this new BTX crap right away.
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    Well I am personally not impressed.

    Not providing AGP support at all is going to delay enthusiasts from switching to the new Form Factor.

    Saturating the cool air immediately by passing it over the CPU and then passing it over the other components is a big mistake as by that point it will be significantly less affective at cooling as you cannot increase the volume of air flowing over those components to compenesate for the higher than ambient temperature you have now.

    They should be looking at putting more active cooling into the current format before putting this BTX crap out
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    Are we ever going to see the PCI Express systems allow for multiple video cards? With new video cards, they allow multiple outputs for monitors. I still think it would be nice to have three screens being pushed by different video cards. I was never aware of Intel building a chipset that would support two AGP slots. Is this PCI-X16 slot strictly for video or can you stick your video card wherever you want if you have a mobo full of PCI-X slots?
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    Intel wanting more royalties mayhaps? Wouldn't be the first time they changed somthing with that as the primary goal.
  • n0d3 - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    it's not so bad really,

    by flipping the case, add on cards are finally facing chips upwards again, and that is a lot better then having them downwards. it can get rid of the heat easyer. And the CPU beeing infront isn't really that new either, a lot of socket7 boards where like that.
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    Change for the sake of change... or control of the motherboard, power supply, and case industries. You take your pick based on your view of Intel. None-the-less, the only thing worthwhile in the whole BTX design is the cooling. The right swapped to left is in a word "unnecessary." Just flip the pictures in this report left to right in your mind and you'll see that there was no compelling reason for the change... unless you subscribe to a darker image of Intel (as I do) that this is as much about controlling the industry as it is about innovation or change for the better.
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    #15, there are PS/2 keyboard and mouse to USB converters. :) I have a couple IBM Model M too, best keyboards ever! :))
    On the other hand, USB for mouse and keyboard SUCKS!!! USB has high latency, and uses lots of processor time, **total crap** for gaming control!! :((
  • McCarthy - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    Miss the old Articles forum...Anonymous User sure talks a lot.

    I guess I'm missing the point of BTX too. For OEMs having the 'thermal module' upfront so they can use the combine the functions of CPU heatsink's fan and case fan will reduce cost slightly, but then Dell's already been doing this quite effectively as is with their neon green duct. Removing Parallel-Serial-PS/2 is a function of the ATX backplane included with the moterboard, as made ever so obvious by including parallel and PS/2 in the BTX example case. The most innovative thing I'm seeing from the examples you were given is the notched PSU allowing for a skinnier case.

    What I don't see are demands for uniform motherboard-case plugs for Power/Reset/lights. I'm also failing to see how having the motherboard face the other way makes PCI Express or Serial ATA any easier a transition. Frankly, aside from allowing OEMs to have a nice centrally mounted grating for the input fan over their 'thermal module' rather than an offset one in the back, I don't get the point at all. Looks like a 1964 and a half Ford revision where nothing is really changed, but parts houses and mechanics get overhead because of it.
  • Serp86 - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    LOL.

    My 9 year old pentium 1 60mhz board had this config. only the case had a 120mm fan instead of the 80!!!

    Who called this "innovation"!?

    LOL. In Intel's Face.
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link

    Would it not be easier to pull the air into the case over the cpu front he side of the case via a funal? This is exaclty what some case manufacturs are doing for the current micro ATX cases.
  • Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - link


    What about HARD DRIVES??? Where the heck are they going to fit 4 HDD and a couple DVD/CD drives? In that little tiny space labeled "drives"?!?! And what about keeping them cool?? They are going to cook!
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    Bad idea.

    Like eating baked beans on a bus trip!
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    This is #31 again.

    Is it me or are the dimensions of the microBTX case shown at the bottom of page 5 comparable to a regular ATX case, as far as height and width? Using the dimensions of the microBTX board shown on page 3, rotated and stretched to fit the mounting holes, I appears the case on page 5 appears to be 24" x 15". That doesn't seem very "micro" compared to exisiting mATX cases. That's about the same height and slightly shorter width as my current ATX tower. I guess that's why Intel thinks that the microBTX format will be the most popular, although only 4 expansion slots would suck.

    #33, I'm assuming that a full BTX case (unlike the microBTX case shown in the photos) would allow for more drives at the top. Additionally, it might be possible to mount a hard drive cage behind the PCI slots at the bottom of the case, just like on some ATX cases.
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    all i can say about the btx case is..

    um.. WHERE do the hdds go ??

    doesn't seem there is even a spot to put them to me, and the btx case seem to be a tadd small, i have 3 cdrom drives and 6 ( yes i typed 6 ) hdds in my inwill q500 case.. with the BTX case.. WHERE i'm i going to put these ???

    the ps2 ports should stay for a while longer, a buch of friends just upgraded their comps, some even got new keyboards and mice, while most of the mice are usb ( see logitechs Mx500) i don't think any of them bout usb capable keyboards, the serial and printer ports can go, p2s ports should stay, maybe update them and take them off the isa bus, or give them a direct connection to the southbridge
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    As the owner of an ibm 300pl model 6862 I say,
    DUH, this is just a reversed NLX. What a bunch of
    @#$%^&*. The industry losers are trying to get us to shell out more money because they don't have any real performance gains and nothing very exciting to offer.
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    #29, this is just a mirror image of the old ATX boards, except the CPU and memory have switched places. If you look at the microBTX picture at the top of page 3, rotate it 90 degrees clockwise, and superimpose it on the photo at the bottom of page 5, you'll see that BTX is almost exactly a mirror image of ATX.

    As far as the rest of the comments people have made, I strongly agree that there should be a front panel connection for at least the basic switches and LEDs (power, reset, HDD). I hate having to plugin all those stupid little connectors.

    As far as legacy-free goes, it's about damn time. Good riddance to PS/2, serial, and parallel (hopefully eventually floppy too). USB mice and keyboards are dirt cheap and most printers have been USB for years. USB keys are better than floppies and newer mothrboards cna boot from them just like floppies. The reason the Abit MAX series is so expensive is because they cram a lot of features into them and engineer them well, not because they are legacy-free. If someone made a basic board without all the legacy ports, it probably would be cheaper (at least for them to make, passing on those savings to the consumer is another story). To these legacy connectors, I say don't let the door hit you on the way out!
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    1) At least standardize the lead from the front panel array. Ya know, have a lead for lcd, power, reset, etc.. like a mini-ide cable comming off the motherboard. Let the case makers then make the matching connectors on their end.

    2) Re-survey the computing market. I highly doubt there is a huge market for small ugly quiet pc's. But who knows? Personally, I'd prefer a even bigger pc than what I have today, with much more room for stuff. Like 4 hard drives and a few cd and dvd recorders. Plus maybe a TV and radio tuner..etc..









  • sandorski - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    I'm confused as all hell. Is this just the mirror image of ATX or do the card slots go ontop and the cpu on the bottom like the graphic(unlike the pics of the cases)suggests? Were the cases upside down?
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    The Intel or Andantech guys must've just gotten drunk and built their own prototype case backwards!!

    As long as the form factor for the P9 P10 ATX plug onto the motherboard doesn't change we can still use flex or 1U power supplies to plug into these drunk engineering boards. There is this thing you call "backwards compatible" please someone that made up this idea read up on it.
  • Atropine - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    Intersting changes coming our way, just don't know how well it will be accepted by the PC Enthusiast Community.....from the looks of these comments, not very well!
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    DAMN its ugly.
    Can see the market for case windows dropping substantially
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    #19,

    Better take another look at that thermal picture. As far as I can tell that is an air intake!

    Usually a darker color depicts a lower temperature. Now look at the area surrounding the CPU. Directly above the CPU you can see the color streaking from the heatsink.

    Even more telling is the color streaking up from the graphics card.

    I also have a bad feeling about heating the computer in this way. But Intel has done this before. In the original ATX specifications the CPU was to be cooled by a passive heatsink, being cooled by the air being blown in through the PSU. To facilitate this the CPU was located directly below the PSU, and the PSU were to be equipped with a fan mounted on the bottom, blowing air down.

    In retrospect it doesn't seem like a very good solution, and it never was. The ATX specification was quickly revised, but not before the major OEM manufactures had pumped out many thousand computers with the original configuration.

    This BTX standard doesn't appear to be a good design, and it will be interesting to see if it can succeed. I don't think it deserves to, not in it's current incarnation, but I'll reserve the right to change my mind once I get to play with one.
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    "Virtually no computer systems have 'air intake fans'."

    Put down the crack pipe. Intake fans are pretty common.
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    I'll be mad, too. I've got a box full of Model M keyboards, in case the two I'm using now ever go bad.

    Best keyboard of all time == IBM Model M.
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    A LOT of people still use parrallel ports for printers. I'm a comp. tech, and I see them ALL the time.

    The serial ports... they're hardly used at all, but when you need them, you NEED them.
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    I still can't believe noise is that much of a problem to people. Does it really bother people that much when they hear a fan spinning?
  • Icewind - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    What the hell is with the changing of position on the open side of the case is beyond me, and I find that new PCI express power requirments a total joke. My gawd, were gonna need 1000W PSU's at this rate. I love case modding and such, but this seems like a joke to me personally, i'll keep my modded Antec 1000AMG "Blue Fantasy" for a long time to come...

    http://www.3dbistro.com/ftp/icewind/fantasy4.jpg
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    Duh. Geez, get it right. That's *not* an air intake fan by the CPU, that's the exhaust fan. Just take a look at your own thermal picture. The CPU is the last thing to get the cool air, as it should be, otherwise all your components would just be heated up by the CPU. Grade school thermo tells you the way to efficiently cool something like this is to exhaust the hot air, not blow in cool air. Virtually no computer systems have "air intake fans."
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    Can u put a BTX and an ATX picture side by side to compare the difference? I'm wondering also if that one picture is backwards
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    This is obviously Intel getting bought off by the cae industry. If a mirror image of the btx was used instead it would be compatible with existing ATX cases, provided a front fan was installed and the screw holes lined up. I cannot imagine any other explanation for flip-flopping the motherboard other than to make it completely neccesary to buy a new box for your rig.
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    I don't understand why with the AGP slot, no manufacturer ever thought to just put the GPU and Memory on the back of the card? It's not like it wouldn't fit in 99% of the cases/MBs, and with PCI Express they could have just flipped it around, as they did when PCI came out (Compared to ISA) then you could have both PCI and PCI Express (although I don't know why that would be good), and on the same know, have AGP and 16x. Actually, this is sounding better as I think about it, is it just me? As far as moving the CPU, you don't need a new specification to do that, Intel is just making sure their new 100w CPU works ok in small cases. Go intel!!! I actually hope AMD doesn't fallow this and succeeds.

    Is this an Intel specification, cause I didn't here any other company's being on any press release?
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    I hope there's a PS/2 to USB adapter for my IBM Model M =(

    Don't those need special controllers or something? Oh angst. Anyone?
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    It's interesting that they propose to make the CPU the first thing to be cooled by the fresh, cool air being sucked into the chassis. This means that just about everything else will be basking in the warmth from said CPU.

    Of course they might figure that with a single point of entry for the air, the air flow would be so high that the air wouldn't get that hot. Some how I fear that this won't be a very good solution for high-end workstations. It is much the same idea that they used for the initial ATX standard. It didn’t take many months’ before that was silently revised. By now it's hard to find any evidence whatsoever of those early ATX specifications.
  • dvinnen - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    I'm a little torn about this. Moving the CPU was a good idea I guess. And it's finally time to get rid of Parllel, Serial, and PS/2 ports? Who actually uses parrlel or serial? But why dose it have to be incompatible with current cases? Don't make since to me. Not enough change to warrent it.
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    Don't hold your breath waiting for some thing truly useful, such as a standard for the front/case connectors. Intel had the chance with NLX, but missed it. They didn't even try touching these connectors with ATX.

    WTX, who cares? Its dead, and good riddance to it!

    SSI, well now we are talking, but sadly no standard for the front panel connectors.

    Micro ATX and Flex ATX, one of these must have had some standard for the front panel connectors? Nope!

    Partly this is understandable. There are a staggering amount of motherboards, and the variation when it comes to ports, switches and LED’s are huge.

    Even so I would be happy if there were a standard for the most common: Power switch, Reset switch, Power LED, HDD LED. That way you could have a working system up and running without having to either decipher microscopic markings on the MB, or digging the manual out of the round filing cabinet.

    And please, for the love of what ever is holy, standardize the USB and FireWire headers. And if there still is Com ports, or a parallel port header, then make sure these also follow a common standard! Counter to popular believes, neither the headers for the serial ports, nor those for parallel ports are standardized today. Each manufacturer uses whatever pin out they fancy, and some times this is a major PITA.
  • jamesey - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    1. why cant current mobo's simply move the cpu down and near the fan.

    2. why cant current mobobs be designed to have a PCIX vid card fit in an ATX case?

    3. This all seems uncessary.
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    i like the way intel is legacy out the door. i doubt an avg consumer can afford an abit max just to be legacy free. but what i'm having trouble understanding is if the cpu, say a prescott w/ 100 watts of heat, is up front and getting the most cool air, won't it raise the case temp dramatically regardless, since its moving warmer air to an already hot gfx card and other components?
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    I would also like to know whether the horribly irritating job of plugging in speaker, power on switch, reset switch et al has been FINALLY eliminated by putting all the leads in a single connector. Which should have btw been done in ATX already.
  • ChemMan - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    I agree, I don't see the "innovation" in all of this. It seems as though the current ATX design was mirrored and the processor moved to the front of the board. I suspect the motivation of this design was less "innovation" and more industry endorsed obsolescence in an effort to sell new parts.
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    so what you have to take out the video card to get the cpu that just does not make sense
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    This ain't innovation. Innovation is a USB vagina!
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    I also don't see the 'innovation' in this. All they have done is move the position of things to suit the needs of current components and maybe those to come for another few years and optimise the airflow which should have been done the first time with ATX. At least tower case users will probably be able to say that it puts the heatsink unit on their graphics card the right way up, but for the desktop this is a pointless change.

    Also, what about all those people who have invested heavily in cases, such as those with all aluminium alloy cases costing over $200... I'm suspecting there to be a huge demand in ATX motherboards for some time mainly because if new BTX cases are made like brand new ATX cases, they will be flimsy and pretty much rubbish in everything except having stupid plastic stuck over the front to give it 'style'.
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    Nice article, Anand, but this looks like nothing more than a re-hashed WTX form factor. For those who don't know what WTX was...it was just like this new BTX, but without the PCI-express. It flopped like a fish out of water and also soon died. I think we should just stick with ATX micro-ATX, and flex-ATX.
  • idsanity - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    Any word on if BTX will eliminate the need for the extra 12v power connector and will it include a standardized connector for front panel cabling?
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    Jeeeez. What a waste of time and energy. They call this innovation? All they did was move the CPU to the most advantageous position on the board and let everybody else scramble for what was left. Any moron could have done this. As a matter of fact if you look at a few of the old Compaq's (Crapaq) you will see that they directed the PS exhaust over the CPU and chipset heatsinks. Same difference, but the PS was first. Besides, if the ambient temp is 115F the "active" cooling doesn't work very well anyway. It's time for someone without a full time job to come up with the gas phase change cooling system that works intelligently. All you have to do to control condensation on an A/C system is determine incoming coolant temp with current die temp to make sure the system isn't overcooling. You could even use a condensation detection circuit as a backup. Too many electrical geeks trying to do the mechanical geeks job of cooling gets you nothing more than more, bigger, slower fans. Why not just make a pretty computer with no case at all. How about we just make a decent server and mount it in the cooling vent of my central air. Just brainstorming here, but dang, it's not that hard.
  • Anonymous User - Thursday, September 18, 2003 - link

    wtf? those pictures of cases were backwards! That's gonna get confusing.
    And in regards to the comment about Dells being quiet, as the not-so-proud owner of a Dimension 8200 I would like to differ. It's not quite what you'd call 'silent'.
    But yeah, all that new stuff looks cool. Anyone know if there are any other companies working on the standard along with intel?
  • marc1000 - Monday, March 25, 2013 - link

    10 years later, BTX is dead, mini-ITX is here. I personnaly own a Micro-ATX and think it's perfectly fine.
  • CZroe - Tuesday, July 2, 2013 - link

    "...the final nail in the coffin of boring computers will be driven by BTX. "

    I was going to laugh at how prophetic this wasn't until I realized how prophetic it was. Back then I believed it too and even bought the first Cooler Master Stacker (convertible to BTX). Even though BTX never made it, it did put the final nail in the coffin on boring ATX designs as they incorporated much of the BTX ideas in enthusiast cases, like those with upside-down PSU/motherboard designs. Yes, these "exciting" cases may not conform to ATX spec but they fit ATX boards and incorporate many BTX advances.

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